ClixSense does not sell or rent referrals because ClixSense operates in an ethical legitimate fashion.

Buying/Renting referrals is a game. The only time it is MIGHT be worthy is for those high risk takers
that purchase when a bux program is brand new that has been introduced by an admin of same bux
program. They take the big risk then by upgrading to max option and purchasing 50 or more refs
immediately. This is because they know what they are buying is real members that are already
using the admin's bux programs. If they wait a couple of weeks, what they'd be buying is mostly
bots. Because it is impossible for any program online, especially bux programs, to have hundreds
and thousands of real people to rent/sell every day.

It is fun to have bullshxx smeared in your face every day isn't it? I mean, you log into a bux
program to click the ads, and there it is, right in your face, referrals for rent or sell. So easy
isn't it? So tempting isn't it? You can take those few bucks you have in your payment processor
account and buy those bots. So fun! You don't have to work to gain referrals. You can take
the fun, easy bullshxx way. Nothing more fun than spending your money on bullshxx.

Yippee! A million laughs. The only problem is, you're not laughing for long are you? Well then,
buy some more! After all, you probably just got a bad batch of bots. Maybe next time you'll get
a good batch of bots.

What? You mean to tell me the second batch of bots were not any better than the first batch?
My goodness. How about getting smeared in some more bullshxx? It's fun! Buy some more!

Come on folks. There is not an opportunity online that can sell hundreds to thousands of real
referrals every day. The larger an opportunity becomes, the more difficult it would be for them
to have referrals for sell every day.

It really is bots. Sure, there may be a few real people mingled in that joined legitimately looking
for a way to earn and ended up at the main program site. But that is not even going to happen
every day. Plus, it is very few.

ClixSense is not a game. It's not a risky program here. Reality is, there is no risk here at all.

Yep Good information for beginners!!!

For the rental game to work at all every day there would have to be at least double the new members from the previous day. Like a ponzi basically.

It just makes no sense... every day the competition to rent referrals increases but new members don't increase as much... also many people abandon their accounts a few days later, reducing the inventory.

Just imagine a site with 100,000 members where lets say just 1000 (1%) are willing to rent... the maximum they would be able to rent each would be 99 And more than half will just quit after a while

But what if at least 50% (reasonable right?) of the members are willing to rent That would mean only 1 referral available for everyone

Thank you valerie and other Clixsensians, it was really very informative.

That's true. The math just isn't there and they really do function similar to a ponzi.

What about direct referrals? Are they available to rent as well?

Forgot to mention that on my previous post, it just makes the math even more impossible

I tell you what it reminds me of. Crap Leads. That's what I use to call them in the old days.

Crap Leads come from bingo and lotto sites.

The way that works is some bingo and lotto sites are in business as crap lead sales.
That's the way they make their money.

How it works is, before you can play their free bingo or play their free lotto, you have
to visit one to three sites first.

Advertisers pay the bingo and lotto sites for the crap leads.

I know because I have did it. There is several ways this can be done.

One way is, the person visiting the bingo/lottery site, enrolls so he can play, then he
visits the site/sites before he can play, then he may sign up at the sites he visits but
he may not. In either case, he is not interested, he just wants to to try his luck at
bingo or the lotto. Since he entered his info, the guy that purchased, gets his email
address.

The time that I purchased, they would roll into my email account, one by one. I had
their email address, name, ip address. I could then email them directly or put them
in an autoresponder. Even back then, most were too smart to give their real or main
email address. They were crap leads because you got nothing from them but a hole
in your pocket.

Another is 'Junk Newsletter Leads'. I guess there is companies that still sell them.
There was a big one back then that was for newsletter and ezine publishers. They
had a huge site and you could list your newsletter. You could also purchase leads.
I remember trying to get a refund because they were all junk.

All you got to do is import. IMPORT IMPORT IMPORT. Ya head over to a crap leads
program or any number of the gazillion junk leads programs. Buy yourself a million
crap leads pack. Import them into your program. Then sell them to your unsuspecting
members.

Also, it really does not take a whole lot of programming knowledge. You can save
money and not even buy crap leads. You can make up your own crap leads and
then import them.

Bots is one thing and Crap Leads is another thing. Both are garbage of course.

And I tell you something that is worse than anything and that is being a fool.
The admins are laughing at you. They're taking your money and laughing all
the way to the bank. What a bunch of dip shxx's is what they are thinking.
You're dishing out your hard earned bucks on crap leads, bots, auto import fakes.

At the base, PTC are all the same. No out of pocket is required. Just click the ads and earn money. All PTC hope that you will upgrade or otherwise invest your own money, but it is not required. Any that do require investment should be shunned immediately.

The "catch" comes from the amount of money to be made. Each PTC hopes that you will bring more members to it. Ergo the opportunity to earn more from referrals, Affiliate programs and other means. Unless you recruit referrals for the PTC, you will earn the minimum or however many ads you can click per day. This can be improved by installing toolbars and being available online for longer periods of time to click ads, but the bottom line is that you will make a few dollars a month if you are lucky.

As for "bot" referrals, who cares? As a member you want the "clicks" (real or fake) that they generate. Direct or rented makes no difference. When the rented referral (human or bot) slows down to the point that it is no longer profitable, you replace it with another one. When a direct referral stops clicking you have to advertise to gain a replacement.

"Rented Referral" is a misnomer. What you are renting is a position with an employee. Each position costs an amount of money. The employee must "click) enough to make that money back for you and turn a profit or you replace them as you would in any business. Replacing a bad employee costs money as well, but less than renting a new position. And probably less than the cost of advertising in hops of getting a new direct referral.

I do not claim to be an expert. All I am saying is from my experience. I started with ClixSense in July of 2009. I have never had a referral in ClixSense. In the year 2010, I made about $8.0425 a month. In 2011 it dropped to $5.197083 per month. The main difference being the advent of the Mini, Mico ads. It is possible that I wasn't as active in 2011, but I feel like I put forth the same, or more, effort.

I currently belong to neobux. I have 30 Rented Referrals and I treat them as I have described above. I started on 2011/02/27 with neobux. So far I have earned about $5.76 a month with them. I have cashed out once for $2. The rest has been spent in maintaining my referrals and such. Yes, you can use that as an argument. Still, had I not rented I might have cached out that amount. I have no out of pocket invested in neobux. I hope to be in a position soon to draw some funds from them. Who knows? As with any business, it takes time and effort to build it.

What does all this mean? I don't know. It is just my experience based with what I believe to be an impartial view of facts that is not always offered.

I disagree with you on your statement that at the base, all PTC's are the same.

There's a very big difference.

For starters, a PTC originated out of the focus of advertising. That is the base.
If there is no advertising, there is no base and therefore it is not a real ptc...it's a game of investment.

From the start of CS, the base has always been the advertiser and it still is.
There is no selling of bots or using bots or crap leads in any way whatsoever.

Furthermore, over time, CS has implemented more for the advertiser. More affordable options, more
targeting, etc.

The majority of Bux programs and understand I am not talking about Neobux, has No geotargeting.
About the most you have for targeting your ad is paid member or free members or both.

Another big issue with bots, is the fakeness of the real membership base.

If you claim you have 1 million members but half of them are bots, how many members do you really have?
Therefore, advertisers are often fooled at the so called bux and/or ptc programs into believing their are a higher
membership number than what there really is.

This topic is not about risky business per se. It's up to each individual to do whatever he chooses
to do. This topic is about the WHY CS does not rent or sell referrals. Every so often, someone posts in
these forums 'Where do i buy the referrals?' or 'Will you sell referrals?'. CS is not an investment program.
It really isn't. NeoBux and most the bux programs out there, ARE investment programs.

You also say you are renting referrals at Neobux. So you are investing in Neobux. Whether you are
spending money out of your own pocket or using what you earn to rent the referrals, it is still a risky
investment.

There is no investment at CS. There is an opportunity at CS and that is the opportunity to upgrade
to an affiliate premium level for $17 per year (Feb) and thereby earn on affiliate sales down 8 levels,
not just 1.

So if you compare CS with Neobux, there is no comparison.

CS = affiliate program
NB = investment program

You may disagree all you like. Enjoy.

I simply offer a different point of view. Mine is no better, valid or anything else, than other points of view. It is simply different.

NB requires NO investment.

CS requires NO investment.

Both offer upgrades for money (investment?). Both can be enhanced by recruiting direct referrals. I see no real difference. What you say may be true of other bux programs. I don't know. As for the base being advertising, perhaps you are correct. If there are no advertisers, there is no program. If there are no clickers, there is no program. Both are required in any PTC, bux or not, or it fails.

Depending on how the word 'investment" is defined, investment in advertising and recruiting is required to gain direct referrals in both (all) programs if earning more money is desired. Neither and both pay dividends on investments made to gain referrals in that more money may be earned, again, depending on definitions. Opinions of which is best are just opinions. You may argue semantics until you are blue if you wish. It all comes down to different means to accomplish the same goal of making money.

Is investing none of my personal money in ClixSense or Neobux a risk? Is investing advertising money, personal or otherwise, to gain direct referrals in ClixSense or Neobux a risk?

I don't know. I don't pay to advertise CS.

But no, there is no investment at CS. I suppose some might call a $17 yearly affiliate fee an investment but in
reality it is not. It's an opportunity. Whereas bux programs are not an opportunity, they are investment programs...
which tie right in with HYIP's, DOUBLERS, FAST CYCLERS, that sort of thing.

Semantics again. Opportunity, Investment and other things. A salesperson gives you the opportunity to invest. You invest in the opportunity. It isn't an investment, it is an opportunity. It isn't an opportunity, it is an investment. Which is it??

You don't have to "invest" that $17.00 yearly to keep clicking just like you don't have to "invest" in bux sites to keep clicking. You are given an opportunity to invest or do you invest in the opportunity?

There really is a big difference in the 'invest' and the 'op'. There is a difference.

When you invest, you are expecting some sort of gain. Since we are talking about
bux programs in general, we can say that if you invest $20 for referrals, you are
expecting a monetary cash gain. Wouldn't you agree with that?

Now let's look at CS. It is not an investment. Because you are not
investing in anything. You're not buying nor renting referrals expecting a return
on your investment. Instead, you're paying $17 per year to be an affiliate period.
This is called an opportunity. The opportunity to make money. The opportunity
to build an 8 level organization. The opportunity to make stipends from those
you sponsor and/or those in your 8 levels. The opportunity to work to view
ads and make money.

Because you are not investing, expecting high returns. You have the opportunity
to refer advertisers, to refer standard affiliates and premium affiliates. You earn
a stipend according to the activity you produce and if you are a premium member
you may be leveraging by building an 8 level organization. This IS an opportunity.

The big difference between the two is really that service of renting/selling referrals.
There is no downline structure per se. There is no focus on work to gain. It's about
as close to a ponzi scheme as it gets. Do nothing, buy referrals/rent referrals, make
money.

Some of the larger bux programs out there, if they were located within the USA and
pulling in millions, you can believe the SEC would have already got involved.

Think of the surf for cash programs, as an example. Those were not opportunities.
Those were investment programs. Well ok, what was their product? It was
advertising. The SEC walked in and shut them down.

Bux programs run the same length as the paid to surfs.
They are not opportunities because they are not legally legit according
to the legal term.

It's not semantics. It's the difference between a legal and ethics and illegal and
non-ethics.

Whatever you say.

Well don't be mad at me Kreacher. I have enjoyed our little discussion here.

I'm not mad. Just saw no future in continuing. We both see things differently and probably will continue to do so.

To continue, if you wish:

I expect nothing from my investment of time and other things. Neither in neobux nor CS. I hope that one day I may receive my first direct referral in CS or see something profitable come from my efforts in neobux, but I don't expect it. To do so would be to invite failure, in my humble opinion.

What is legal and ethical in the U.S.A. is different from other countries. To try to apply one to cover all just doesn't feel right to me. It is possible that CS may be illegal in some other country. I don't know, but it is possible.

I would ask: Is it an opportunity if one does not take the opportunity? Perhaps a missed opportunity? Is it an investment if one does not invest? Perhaps a missed investment?

The fact that I bought referrals is not relevant here. My action could be called and opportunity to invest in an investment opportunity. Since I also upgraded to Premium in CS, I could consider that an investment with the opportunity to gain more as well.

On the legal side, if the bux sites are not legal in the U.S.A, then is what I am doing, and many others in the U.S.A. doing, by being a member of a bux site legal? Is being paid in any capacity by a bux site legal?

To use the U.S.A. to determine what is and isn't right or legal for the rest of the world seems wrong to me. That said, I am sure that I "judge" according to the laws, customs and my "raising" in the U.S.A. more, and perhaps less than I should at times.

Hi Valerie,
What do you think of Neobux's rented referral system. Do you think they use bots.

P.S. i joined your site, marketingpond, by the way.

EDIT: Oh sorry, I see you have already expressed your views about Neobux above.

Ya, I think they NeoBux uses bots and junk leads. They no doubt have people that visit there site without a
sponsor at times, and those would go into the referral packs too.

Actually, I was one of the first people to join NeoBux on the day it launched.

I think ya get me a bit wrong Kreacher in what I am saying here and what this topic is about.

I never received the confirmation link from NeoBux when I enrolled. I contacted them, and they
replied in a very cold manner to say the least. They never sent me another confirm link or anything.
They said my gmail account was bouncing. Well, maybe so. I said the heck with it as I don't like
arseholes and that is what they sounded like.

About a year ago, I went over and joined and real funny because I got the confirmation link to my
bouncing gmail account. I logged in and I clicked ads as a free member til I reached a little over
$1.00 in earnings. I'd have to say that IF they had allowed me to make purchases immediately,
I would have. It wouldn't have matter to me if I had lost my money or not. I just decided it was
time to check it out and see exactly what they were doing. After I reached over a dollar in earnings,
I had enough. I didn't like it. I didn't like their forum either. I didn't like what I read on their
forums and I did not like how they were conducting business, so to speak.

What YOU want to do is your business. It's not anyone else's. What opportunity you choose,
what investment program you choose, what ever you decide to spend your money on is your
business.

I've purchased refs and I have rented refs at bux programs. That's why I know how they work
and that is how I know what they are doing.

Well Kreacher, I can't tell you all about the online laws or the country laws. It does get confusing.
Personally, I think adults are responsible for what they do and what they choose to do. The problem
comes in when adults act like children. Ohhh boohoo I lost a dollar.....Ohhhh boohoo I paid $20 for
referrals and none of them are active......Ohhhhh boohoo I invested in an HYIP and it disappeared...
Ohhhh.... I'm sorry but I just don't have sympathy for those adults that do that.

When you are online to make money, it is you as an adult making that decision to join or not join
something, to buy or not buy something. You should never risk more than you can afford to lose.
It's like going down to the corner store and buying a lotto ticket, not winning, then raising cain with
the store and the state that sold you the ticket. You should never expect to make money but work
to make it. You should do your research and use good old fashion common sense. Therefore, no
matter what you do in the money making world, you have no one to blame but yourself, win or lose.

I don't feel any government should interfere with the internet but they do! There is still people today
that fall for the 'I AM GABBADADA FROM TIMBUCTOONIE AND I AM THE PRINCE OF THE LATE KAKA
KING OF NAGAKAKA AND I HAVE 10 BILLION AMERICAN DOLLARS TO SEND TO YOU...ALL YOU NEED
TO DO IS SEND ME $5000 FOR TRANSFER FEES AND ...." . Who is to blame in that junk? I mean
my gosh. It's not that I don't feel sorry for people that go for it but I must say, they are
adults and they should in fact have enough common sense to know better.

I don't think the SEC or the FBI looks at small time junk. It would be impossible. That's also why
there are gazillions of small time junk programs online. But when they see MILLIONS of dollars
coming thru payment processors, you better believe they know it!

I think we have reached a somewhat common ground.

I also think that bux sites use bots. As said, the numbers just don't add up.

Ethical and legal depends on the law and culture where the operation is located. Even then there can be dispute. I would imagine there are many in the U.S.A. that think ClixSense should be illegal and is unethical. All of my family and many others that I have tried to recruit to ClicxSense have refused with varying degrees of ClixSense being not worth the time, a scam and other feelings. I admit to harboring the same feelings until I decided to try it. I still do not like the concept, but there are a few dollars to be made and I am not in the position to turn down money. Most of the ads seem to be about other PTC sites, HYIP's, DOUBLERS, FAST CYCLERS and that sort of thing. Few are what I would call "business", as in online stores and such.

I have also purchased ads with ClixSense. My results were that the views were seldom longer than the view time I purchased. On ClixGrid I received over 12,000 clicks (views). Most were for the 5 seconds and then gone. I track my sites with StatCounter and that is the results I saw. With the other ClixSense ads came the same results. The views were no longer than the time I purchased and seldom did the view go farther than the page I pointed the ad towards. I saw zero to negiligable gains in income from the ads for the cost. My sites are not PTC, HYIP's, DOUBLERS, FAST CYCLERS and the like.

I also don't care much for the forum on neobux. I have been temproarily banned from it once for some unknown reason. Probably wrote something that seemed insulting to someone. Yes, they are strict. If you type ClixSense in a message the word will be blocked out by a Moderator as being advertising or promoting even if you are speaking bad about Clixsense or simply making a reference. Different culture there.

My main problem with your post was the claim that "ClixSense does not sell or rent referrals because ClixSense operates in an ethical legitimate fashion.". While true, the inflection was that all bux sites are illegal and unethical. While that may be true in some places and using some views, it felt like a judgement based on only one set of laws and ethics with no consideration to other cultures or laws. Perhaps we will need to simply agree to disagree on this.

With this, I will attempt again to put this to rest. Have a great day!

Nope, I never said all bux programs were unethical.

There are bux programs that don't even sell nor rent referrals.

Did you know I owned one? Yep, I did. In fact, I've owned a couple of the PTC's over the years.

The first one I owned was really bad. I mean REAL bad.
It was before there was 'bux' scripts.

The owner of LinkGrand, helped me with the script. It was all coded in some other language
that neither of us understood. My members over at MP, wanted me to launch a ptc and at
the time, that was my intention, to launch several programs that were simple, free, and help
them make some extra money. So anyways, the first one was a complete nightmare. Everyone
got paid that had commissions coming to them....even paid the cheaters because there was no
way to tell who was cheating. Plus, it became overloaded with CHINA members. And there was
no mass delete. I'd stay up all night deleting one by one by one. I did not sell nor rent referrals
and there was not even an option for it anyway.

I swore off I'd never launch another.

But I did.

At that time, I was torn between the 'bux' script and another script. Well I contacted both
places and each said the other stole their script. I did not know who to believe and I should
have said the heck with it. I went with the other script and I should have gone with the
bux script. Really. Same goes tho, there was the option to sell and rent referrals but I did
not. And I had one upgrade option which was $10 per year. That was it, free and $10 per
year option. Again, I entered into nightmare city. The thing would not keep the cheaters
at bay. I found my time was mostly spent on getting cheaters out of there. Finally, I took
it down. I paid everyone that had cash outs pending, and then I deleted the mess.

If you remember back when doublers started? I owned one too. Mine lasted longer than
anyone else's, I will say that. At that time, I owned a coffee company and my idea was
based on more coffee distributors and more coffee sales. What I intended was, to launch
the doubler, have a programmer go in there and program it so that members that reached
a certain threshold, would no longer be paid from the doubler, but would get free coffee
distributorship and free coffee. Well that all backfired in my face.

Here's the thing Kreacher...I'm no different than anyone else online that wants to make
money. But there are some things I won't do and some things I will do. I have a heart
and I don't scam people. I want people to make money just like I want to make money.
But I want it done in a legal legitimate fashion. It's just like business offline, if you open
a store, you want people to come into your store and buy, but some times no one does
and you fail. And just like offline, you need to work within the legal realm of the law
and practice good work ethics. Just because you fail, does not mean you scammed people.
There is a lot of reasons why someone fails. It's usually never one reason. The point I
am making is, that true INTENT to COMMIT FRAUD. When someone online launches a
bux site, are they functioning with a true intent for business and for people to make money
in an ethical manner? OR...are they truly functioning within that realm to COMMIT FRAUD?

So when we see that bux programs may be selling or renting referrals that they KNOW
is bots and crap leads or junk leads or any time of referral they are selling that is NOT
the real deal, what do we know? Well we know there is that INTENT TO COMMIT FRAUD.

It's like the kid with the hand in the cookie jar after mom tells the kid, don't get in the
cookie jar.

If NeoBux or any program out there is selling bots and junk fake refs, what are they doing?
They are intentionally committing fraud...and it is that INTENTION OF FRAUD that legally
deems the entire program a SCAM. You're making money off people that are told they
are getting real people but you know you are selling them fake junk. That's a scam no
matter what country you are in.

You tell someone to send you $10 for a horse, they send you $10 for a horse, and what
you get is a jackass in return, something ain't right.

So there are no doubt good people that own bux programs and manage them to the best
of their ability and focus them in a legit manner. Some work out and most don't.

But that is the difference in CS and bux programs that sell referrals. The selling of referrals
is a game that I have never entered and never will and I believe CS feels the same way.