charez wrote: Well, using animals for food and for tests is a bit different i think.

Using for food is part of the chain food.

I'm sorry but your wrong because eating animals is not part of our natural food chain.
Remember that certain corporations have the most to gain from us being brainwashed.
As far as i recall there is the meat lobby, the tobacco lobby, the alcohol lobby and the gun lobby.
They are extremely powerful but let's only talk about the meat lobby in this thread.

Peta was exposed by the "Center for Consumer freedom" here -->petas-indecent-exposure-exposed

It's actually nothing more then a smear campaign against Peta, why ?

If you look closely at who created that smear campaign against peta and who is actually behind the group called the "Center for Consumer freedom" then it does make sense after all to attack Peta.
Who are the people behind the"Center for Consumer freedom" ?

You would never guess, the same corporations/lobbies i mentioned above are behind the CCF group, and of course they tell us to buy guns, to drink alcohol, to smoke tobacco and to eat meat.
With the help of the google search engine all my claims can be proven.

Here is that same group and it's corruption: consumerdeception
And here: for the restaurant, alcohol, tobacco and other industries

Don't forget that our world today is 99% corrupt to it's core, all caused by those same corporations buying our governments and the entire political structure by "donations".And in return those same politicians push for agendas that only benefit those same corporations. That's called patronage or one hand washes the other.

Now let's get back: We humans are natural "plant eaters", yes you heard..."plant eaters".
Again this claim can be confirmed with the help of the google search engine.

And we are still herbivorous--> Saying we're omnivores because we're capable of eating meat is just silly
The anatomical evidence tells us that we're optimized for eating mostly or exclusively plant foods.

A better point to make would be that the conditionals are backwards.

What Charez is saying is that it's fine to kill animals when there are plenty of alternatives, but it's wrong to kill them when there are none.

There are quite literally millions of alternative food sources, and no alternative to animal testing. If you don't understand why there isn't an alternative to in vivo testing, try fixing a leaking pipe by looking at one of it's molecules.

That's not to say I come out in favour of animal testing - I don't - just that the very premise is faulty.

ok for what primary reasons are animals put under torture for testing?
This i fail to understand and it must be a damn good reason and no other alternative is available and humans would cease to exist.


make-up is no good reason for an animal to be tested on,plenty of natural plants that can be used for colours etc,whats an animal got to do with it?

like i mentioned before,if these experiments done on animals are to pave way for human research then i suggest to clone human organs or bits of samples that can be experimented on.no point in sticking a big fat needle up a bunny's ass or giving a dog electric shock, i mean how cruel can you be?

i guarantee you guys that anyone who works in these testing labs are non animal lovers or got no heart at all,,i mean how could you torture a poor innocent fluffy baby

Quote:ok for what primary reasons are animals put under torture for testing?

In vivo medical research, which brought the world the cancer drugs that account for 50% of the increased survival rates since the 70s, heart disease drugs, like statins, and Cystic Fibrosis research that means sufferers now mostly live to their mid-30s.

Quote:make-up is no good reason for an animal to be tested on

And, in fact, is already illegal in the EU, Norway, Israel and India. The rest of you have some catching up to do, yes.

Quote:i suggest to clone human organs or bits of samples that can be experimented

Which, in fact, is already happening - but wouldn't be possible without animal research!


But again, I don't support animal testing, I just think you're being worse than hypocritical if you oppose animal testing while happily munching on their guts.

BouldRake wrote: A better point to make would be that the conditionals are backwards.

What Charez is saying is that it's fine to kill animals when there are plenty of alternatives, but it's wrong to kill them when there are none.

There are quite literally millions of alternative food sources, and no alternative to animal testing. If you don't understand why there isn't an alternative to in vivo testing, try fixing a leaking pipe by looking at one of it's molecules.

That's not to say I come out in favour of animal testing - I don't - just that the very premise is faulty.

The problem with animal testing is that it causes incredible distress and suffering to animals and we don't have the right to do that. This is particularly so today when we do have far more modern research alternatives based on computer simulations. Many universities are updating their approach to research. Remember that animals do not have the same anatomy as humans so many of the findings based on animal research are faulty. A case in point in thalidomide which causes no harm to animals but after being introduced to the market for human use, caused profound birth defects.

The animal research is driven by an old outdated system where pharmaceutical companies and their researchers make big money and these behemoths are very slow to change their way of doing business. In addition, in most universities you will find that professors wanting tenure are expected to publish research articles in scientific journals. If you read any of these journals, you will find almost nothing that positively impacts the lives of people. However, the articles are quite good at ensuring the writers obtain their tenure. Universities want money and grant money is highly desirable.

We have no right to experiment on animals. The approach is based on an old fashioned sense of species superiority - i.e., we can do anything we want to other species because we're superior to them. Unless we have the quality of empathy, recognizing the rights of others and that includes animals, I would question whether we are really "human" or not.

Is anybody actually reading this, because you're arguing with things I haven't said. Let's try some bigger letters this time.

I am not in favour of animal testing. You're just wrong that killing them, skinning them, and eating them is somehow okay.

Actually bouldrake i am a vegetarian since the past 12 years and was'nt a gr8 meat eater b4 then either,so i am not being hypocritical,,,gosh i really cant stand it when ppl say i am being hypocritical without understanding my post properly.

i mean there must be alternative ways to find cures, comon i am sure you would agree.....i mean if they spent more money on alternative research then i am sure they would get alot of support and donations from the public too.

There is a religion that says:

Don't make your stomach a graveyard

The humans have always eat meats, using the skins to make clothes, or bones for tools ect. Others animals eat others animals as well, we don't call them cruel. I think the problem is the mass consomation wich end by using bad practices.

But i am not for bad practice but i believe my tommy

charez wrote: The humans have always eat meats, using the skins to make clothes, or bones for tools ect. Others animals eat others animals as well, we don't call them cruel. I think the problem is the mass consomation wich end by using bad practices.

But i am not for bad practice but i believe my tommy

Humans are descended from apes and apes are not meat eaters.

The clearing of forests, the environmental impact of so much animal waste and methane going into the environment, and the eating of meat packed with antibiotics and hormones is causing significant damage to our environment and ourselves - far more than automobile or factory emissions.

In order to have a sustainable planet, people need to adopt a vegetarian or vegan diet. Try it! You'll like it. There are a lot of delicious and healthy choices out there. I love Morning Star products in the frozen section of the grocery store. They offer veggie versions of ribs, bacon, sausage, chicken, hot dogs and hamburgers.

cooking without meat/fish,ect, no fun in cooking, boring

lotoole wrote:

charez wrote: The humans have always eat meats, using the skins to make clothes, or bones for tools ect. Others animals eat others animals as well, we don't call them cruel. I think the problem is the mass consomation wich end by using bad practices.

But i am not for bad practice but i believe my tommy

Humans are descended from apes and apes are not meat eaters.

The clearing of forests, the environmental impact of so much animal waste and methane going into the environment, and the eating of meat packed with antibiotics and hormones is causing significant damage to our environment and ourselves - far more than automobile or factory emissions.

In order to have a sustainable planet, people need to adopt a vegetarian or vegan diet. Try it! You'll like it. There are a lot of delicious and healthy choices out there. I love Morning Star products in the frozen section of the grocery store. They offer veggie versions of ribs, bacon, sausage, chicken, hot dogs and hamburgers.

This is the result of the mass consomation and wasn't here before

charez wrote: The humans have always eat meats, using the skins to make clothes, or bones for tools ect. Others animals eat others animals as well, we don't call them cruel. I think the problem is the mass consomation wich end by using bad practices.

But i am not for bad practice but i believe my tommy

Yes but you cannot be against "cruelty to animals" and at the same time enjoy eating a meat meal.

In the old times we humans did indeed eat meat but not everyday.
For example: A long time ago during the "Roman Times" about 1000+ years ago the average Roman citizen only eat meat once every 30-60 days.

They mostly eat vegetables, fruits and porridge but mostly porridge.
The Roman empire mostly used animals for religious ceremonies to read their intestines like for example to find out about the outcome of an important battle or if the gods are happy or to see the future and so on.

Long ago i first stopped eating certain type of meat that came from poultry like chicken or turkey ect. because at that time i had bird pets which i loved very much.

I began having weird feelings because i was eating meat from poultry and at the same time finding my bird pets cute. I was living the life of a hypocrite.

So i began to stop eating the meat from poultry altogether and i started feeling better about myself but i still lived the life of a hypocrite because i still was consuming other types of meat.

After a while when i was still eating those other types of meat i started to think more and more often to myself things like, "what in the hell am i eating here....juck !" or.... "is this disgusting or what !..." and "i really don't want to eat this disgusting stuff anymore".
Finally being completely disgusted by meat i started to eat less and less of it over a period of many many months.

Until finally i noticed that i'm 100% meat free and i was surpised that it was easier then i expected
Many vegetarians and vegans once off the meat consumption will never look back.




You can eat meat-free meals that are equally or better tasty then it's meat version.
Top 10 Vegan Dishes


One cannot eat the meat of a dog but at the same time love his pet dog or love animals but yet still love to eat them, that's a paradox in itself.

Humans eat meat before Roman empire

There is a difference between for exemple chicken that grow in box 24/7 and chicken that lives outside with great grass great food, great music and daily party

But that doesn't mean we have to eat meat because the animals for slaughter have better living conditions outside in the sun then inside a small cage or because our ancestors eat meat.

It's our choice what we eat and that choice should be made by our common sense.

There are plenty of meat-like products that are meatfree on the market that are just like the real meat.
Why Create Meat Imitations?

I would rather see animals alive and well then seeing them dead on my dinner plate.

haha look at this quote coming from an article from Pofesorr. Luis Vallejo Rodríguez, Secretary of the Canarian vegetarian Association

[...] We could argue against vegetarianism that show images of prehistoric man on the rocks of the Caverns as a hunter. However, this does not mean that meat is the ideal form of food for man. We must take into account that the anthropologist Alan Walker, John Hopkins University, when he was studying fingerprints from fossilized teeth, found an assortment of different foods. He claimed that our early ancestors not lived not primarily meat, or seeds, buds, leaves, or grass any more than they were omnivores. It seems that they subsisted mainly a diet of fruit.
He has not found exception.[...]

[...] It is currently accepted that man must eat meat to have a balanced diet containing proteins of good qualite.c' is what is said also by eminent doctors such as Dr. Francisco Grande Govian, recently deceased, regarded as the greatest authority in nutrition in Spain. This, we must add that the Department of health recommends eating meat, and most people eat it and consider it a good food. Yet, considering all this, it is surprising that the most famous naturalists of humanity have been vegetarian and at least declared one after another that the man is vegetarian by nature. [...]

So it is not the ideal form of food...but must eat meat to have a balanced diet

I do wonder though, why do we have meat alternatives? The only time I ever use them is when somebody else is cooking so they don't have to think about doing anything special for me - just stick the sausages in the grill on a different shelf. The rest of the time, who wants pretend sausage when you can have honey roasted peanuts?

If you believe the rumors, then even davidbugs is living a meat-free life because he says he only eats instant noodle soups everyday and nothing else.

CatMonster, it's a reputed vegetarian. By the way, do you eat eggs, milk, ect ?

Look what i found:

Alexander von Humbold (1769-1859) was a German naturalist, explorer and geographer.

"Eating animals as food is not far away from athropophagy and cannibalism. The same amount of land used to graze and feed cattle could feed ten people, if however we cultivated it with lentils, kidney beans or peas it could feed a hundred people....The Orinoco basin can produce sufficient bananas to feed the whole of mankind comfortably."

charez wrote: CatMonster, it's a reputed vegetarian. By the way, do you eat eggs, milk, ect ?

I try to consume less and less of it but it takes time and it's not easy, there is milk used as an ingredient in 90% of food products in my country.

Even normal bread has milk inside as an ingredient.